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Post by truedodger on May 8, 2018 18:32:27 GMT
It's LAUGHABLE that you can't even accept me agreeing with you. I should have known not to do it...You need to be taught something here. If you are going to try to use accomplishments in your faulty replies then you need to be MADE AWARE that Pujols' accolades are better than those of Gonzalez... I said nothing about your agreeing with me. Frankly I could care less. Where there is fault is in your characterization of Gonzalez. One of those two players signed a 10 year / $240M contract at the age of 32 that will take him to his age 41 season and still has four years (this one included) and $114M remaining. The other one signed a 7 year / $154M contract at the age of 28 that will take him to his age 37 season and ends this season with $21.5M remaining. And since you are obviously unaware . . . since signing those deals, Gonzalez is actually the more accomplished player. Higher WAR. Better wOBA. Better OPS+. Talk about a faulty comparison. You don't see the vastly differing scenario's there? ***Gonzalez: 2012- $21,000,000 2013- $21,000,000 2014- $21,000,000 2015- $21,857,000 2016- $21,857,000 2017- $22,357,000 2018- $22,357,000 *ONE gold glove, *ONE all- star, * ONE silver slugger*** Since you want to go there... Pujols: 2012: $12M 2013: $16M 2014: $23M 2015: $24M 2016: $25M 2017: $26M 2018: $27M 2019: $28M 2020: $29M 2021: $30M *ZERO Gold Glove, *ONE All-Star, *ZERO Silver Slugger Who's more accomplished since signing their deal? Who's still owed over $100M for barely league average performance? And Gonzalez is 36 years old and his contract ends this season. Pujols is 38 and still has three additional years on his contract. ***Total hypocrisy without bounds.*** Yup. Same as it ever was. Yet, you're still here polluting the board anyway. Haha, the Almighty obscure stat to persuade the reader of what is a faulty logic and statement. Here are some little stats for you Pujols, Rookie of the Year, Batting title, 4 times more a silver slugger, 5 more times an all star, NLCS mvp, 3 times a MLB player of the year, and oh yeah 3 times the MVP MORE THAN Gonzalez. Gonzalez is NO BETTER, ACTUALLY LESS ACCOMPLISHED and both are vastly overpaid. Learn it. The only polluting that exists is that of your faulty "logic" (if you can even call it that) and of the gang member mentality from the handful of you that carried over here. |
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Post by azulblues on May 8, 2018 18:59:32 GMT
"Gonzalez signed his $22M per contract extension ... If you were denigrating Gonzalez during the first five years of that contract, then you were without doubt wrong." etc... Gonzo began this extension in 2012 with Boston, first year he got his $20M+ He played with Boston and LA that year. His OPS+ for the year was 117, 117 w/Boston, 116 w/ LA. Not so great, although not bad. The next four years he played full time for the Dodgers and these constitute the five years you refer to. His OPS+ for those five years was 122. Again, not bad but not anywhere close to top of the league or what he had done in SD and his first season in Boston. Gonzalez brought a stability and dependability to the Dodgers. From 13-16 he played full seasons and averaged an OPS+ of 124 with 130 being the highest seasonal OPS+. Not bad (not elite by any means, though). He definitely helped the Dodgers win four division titles in a row, but he was not one of the top offensive players of the league in any of those years, but was consistent and dependable and above average. In the five years before the extension, in contrast, with SD and BOS, he averaged a 147 OPS+ with a high of 162, all the while never making more than $6M. |
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Post by azulblues on May 8, 2018 19:04:08 GMT
Gonzo OPS+ 2012 - 2016 (5 years) 122.
Pujols over the same five year period? 123.
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Post by Blunashun on May 8, 2018 19:09:13 GMT
Adrian Gonzalez 1b
7 years/$154M (2012-18)
signed extension with Boston 4/15/11
It might not have kicked in until 2012, but he was guaranteed the money anyway. Adrian hit .338-27-117 / .410 / .548 / 155 OPS+ the year he signed his extension. 213 hits. 45 doubles.
Pujols was a career .328 hitter with the Cardinals. .262 with the Halos. His OB% dropped from 420 to .317. SLG% from .617 to .458. No. The Angels ripped themselves off.
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Post by hunteralan on May 8, 2018 20:13:39 GMT
Gonzo OPS+ 2012 - 2016 (5 years) 122. Pujols over the same five year period? 123. Those numbers are not right. Gonzalez' OPS+ over the five year period were 117, 125, 130, 130, and 111 for an average of 122.6. Pujols' OPS+ over that five year period were 138, 116, 126, 118, and 113 for an average of 122.2. Essentially equal, but Gonzalez actually better. Looking at their yearly averages over the six years since their contracts started (2012-2017): WAR Gonzalez - 2.1 Pujols - 1.1 wOBA Gonzalez - .334 Pujols - .329 WRC+ Gonzalez - 113 Pujols - 111 Offensive WAR Gonzalez - 8.0 Pujols - 2.4 They are for all intents and purposes equal production wise, I won't argue that. But on all counts, Gonzalez is slightly better over that time frame. Add in his superior defense, and it puts him further ahead. There is no doubt Pujols was the superior player prior to the signings of their current deals, but not so much since. And factoring in the contract lengths and amounts, and there's no question Gonzalez and his deal have been better. |
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Post by hunteralan on May 8, 2018 20:56:44 GMT
Haha, the Almighty obscure stat to persuade the reader of what is a faulty logic and statement. What stat would that be? I didn't cite a single stat in that reply. ***Here are some little stats for you Pujols, Rookie of the Year, Batting title, 4 times more a silver slugger, 5 more times an all star, NLCS mvp, 3 times a MLB player of the year, and oh yeah 3 times the MVP MORE THAN Gonzalez.*** Ummm . . . those aren't stats. They're awards and accomplishments. ***Gonzalez is NO BETTER, ACTUALLY LESS ACCOMPLISHED and both are vastly overpaid.*** I never argued Gonzalez was more accomplished than Pujols overall. That's just you fabricating an argument once again. ***Learn it.*** Learn anything... ***The only polluting that exists is that of your faulty "logic"...*** Nothing faulty in my posts. The only thing deficient here is your ability to comprehend. |
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Post by azulblues on May 9, 2018 4:32:03 GMT
Gonzo OPS+ 2012 - 2016 (5 years) 122. Pujols over the same five year period? 123. Those numbers are not right. Gonzalez' OPS+ over the five year period were 117, 125, 130, 130, and 111 for an average of 122.6. Pujols' OPS+ over that five year period were 138, 116, 126, 118, and 113 for an average of 122.2. Essentially equal, but Gonzalez actually better. __ Here's the screen shot from Baseball Reference. Gonzo 122, Pujols 123. You can't average individual years for the multi-year total. But BR does compute the multi-year totals. Still, yes, the same production and Gonzo played a bit more.  |
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Post by azulblues on May 9, 2018 4:56:10 GMT
I agree the Angels made a mistake to sign Pujols as they did. Here is a comparison of Pujols and Gonzo over their careers. It's their OPS+ for each year starting at their first full season and going til 2017. You can really see how similar they've been, and their trajectories have been, since 2011.  |
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Post by Blunashun on May 9, 2018 5:26:43 GMT
I agree the Angels made a mistake to sign Pujols as they did. Here is a comparison of Pujols and Gonzo over their careers. It's their OPS+ for each year starting at their first full season and going til 2017. You can really see how similar they've been, and their trajectories have been, since 2011. What's galling about Pujols is the magnitude of his decline. He might have vied for greatest righthanded hitter of all time in St. Louis. A .328 career batting average there. He hasn't hit higher than .285 in Anaheim. There really is no logical explanation for such a dramatic decline other than he was roiding, the Cardinals knew it, offered him a fair but not outlandish contract, he naturally opted for the treasure ship Moreno pulled into port, & immediately went off the juice, so as to not chance soling his reputation or giving back any of his money in suspensions. Adrian Gonzalez never hit 30 homeruns again, but we know he had a shoulder injury. Other than that he's been pretty stable. Until he hurt his back of course. |
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Post by hunteralan on May 9, 2018 15:05:51 GMT
Here's the screen shot from Baseball Reference. Gonzo 122, Pujols 123. You can't average individual years for the multi-year total. But BR does compute the multi-year totals. Still, yes, the same production and Gonzo played a bit more. I'll take that. Thanks. BTW: How'd you get that on BRef.? And where'd you get the graph in your next post? |
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Post by truedodger on May 9, 2018 15:35:07 GMT
Haha, the Almighty obscure stat to persuade the reader of what is a faulty logic and statement. What stat would that be? I didn't cite a single stat in that reply. My god, you can't even keep up with your web of fabrications: hunteralan Veteran Posts: 82 Member is Online 22 hours ago Quote Post by hunteralan on 22 hours ago Gonzalez is actually the more accomplished player. Higher WAR. Better wOBA. Better OPS+. *I will just stop here. It's not even worth it to respond to the rest of the faulty gibberish in this post.* |
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Post by truedodger on May 9, 2018 15:46:34 GMT
Those numbers are not right. Gonzalez' OPS+ over the five year period were 117, 125, 130, 130, and 111 for an average of 122.6. Pujols' OPS+ over that five year period were 138, 116, 126, 118, and 113 for an average of 122.2. Essentially equal, but Gonzalez actually better. __ Here's the screen shot from Baseball Reference. Gonzo 122, Pujols 123. You can't average individual years for the multi-year total. But BR does compute the multi-year totals. Still, yes, the same production and Gonzo played a bit more. An extremely intellectual post, azulblues. I believe that Pujols lost the 2013 year due to a foot injury and played 99 games. Gonzalez lost the 2017 season to an injury as well but last year is not included. That's a biased assessment. Both have played at some capacity for the past 6 years not 5 years and those numbers should be accounted for. I agree that Pujols is a bad contract like you have stated but he was more accomplished than Gonzalez at the time of their contracts, both have been vastly overpaid in my opinion more so when you consider that the team had to take on Crawford, Beckett, and Punto to acquire Gonzalez it seems. |
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Post by hunteralan on May 9, 2018 16:44:23 GMT
Higher WAR. Better wOBA. Better OPS+. So that's what you term as citing a stat? I mentioned stats. But okay, fine, you can have that one. I'm not going to argue semantic with you since that would most definitely be a battle of futility. Question now becomes, how are those obscure stats? They are mainstream and used by virtually everyone in baseball. So why do you term them obscure? ***I will just stop here.*** Will you? Really? ***It's not even worth it to respond to the rest of the faulty gibberish in this post.*** You are pure comedy. Made even funnier by the fact that you either don't see that so many are simply laughing at you or don't care that you're a laughing stock. |
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Post by hunteralan on May 9, 2018 16:51:41 GMT
I agree that Pujols is a bad contract like you have stated but he was more accomplished than Gonzalez at the time of their contracts... And who's been more accomplished since they signed their current contracts? |
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Post by Blunashun on May 9, 2018 16:53:19 GMT
There's always been questions of Albert's true age as well.
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